Curse

maxxfury · May 21, 2009, 12:38 AM // 00:38

To me a healer bar is (example)
[healers boon][patient spirit][dwaynas kiss][orison of healing][signet of rejuvenation][heal party][glyph of lesser energy][res chant] with max heal and divine

And a prot is (example) [reversal of fortune][prot spirit][guardian][shield of absorption][restore condition][shielding hands][remove hex][rebirth] with max prot and divine

Hybrid would be (example) [word of healing][patient spirit][guardian][shield of absorption][dismiss condition][cure hex][aegis][glyph of lesser energy]
with high heal, prot then divine in that order.

Thats what i think of when someone mentions a HEALER, PROT or HYBRID.

So technically, from my pov, if you combine heal + prot you ARE a hybrid.

Even if its only [gift of health] on a 'prot' bar, or [prot spirit] and [aegis] on a 'healer' bar your still a hybrid, just to a lesser degree, than a conventional hybrid(see example above)

Forgot the rest of what i was gonna post. due to interuption

glacialphoenix · May 21, 2009, 04:58 AM // 04:58

Quote:

This is my understanding of hybrid as well. Some red bar uppers, some prot, and (maybe) some utility.

Same for me. It's still hybrid. Full prot and full heal would be something like LS prot + HB monk.

Wish Swiftdeath · May 21, 2009, 06:59 AM // 06:59

There is absolutely no point running more than 3 heals on a bar. You may as well bring prot...

That is the point

Jeydra · May 21, 2009, 07:06 AM // 07:06

Is it just me or is everyone simply reluctant to support Prot and Heal?

Because although the OP does not mean full prot and full heal in stereotypical fashion, what he mentions definitely is prot and heal. If you play GvG for instance it is quickly obvious that the RC Monk and WoH Monk, while both typically having some prots, are also entirely different. RC Monk cannot heal himself very well, while the WoH Monk has weaker prots. Differences like this one originate obviously (at least to me) from the Prot and Heal department. One is a Prot Monk, the other is a Heal Monk.

On the other hand, running dual WoH Hybrids typically leaves no difference between the two. There are some select differences here and there, eg. one with Spirit Bond and the other with Prot Spirit, but that's it. Both Prot Spirit and Spirit Bond fit the same niche and serve the same function. If a party with two WoH hybrids half-wipes and only one Monk is left alive, it usually does not matter which one is because they are so similar. With Prot + Heal though it absolutely does.

It seems to me that the OP clearly means this: 2x Heal hybrids vs. 1x Heal + 1x Prot of any kind, and it also seems to me that most posters seem reluctant to take a stance on this choice, instead preferring to distort the "Prot and Heal" to "full prot and full heal" ...

maxxfury · May 21, 2009, 11:30 AM // 11:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

I
and it also seems to me that most posters seem reluctant to take a stance on this choice, instead preferring to distort the "Prot and Heal" to "full prot and full heal" ...

Quote:

. But here’s the thing: even with full ProtnHeal, you can still bring a small heal on the prot and a prot or two on the heal. 8+1 prot for the healing monk will not take away from his heals, and allows you to bring Guardian, Prot Spirit, etc.

That's not distorted, that IS a hybrid. Even if one is more dedicated to heal, and one more to prot.

Cebe · May 21, 2009, 02:29 PM // 14:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by maxxfury

That's not distorted, that IS a hybrid. Even if one is more dedicated to heal, and one more to prot.

I agree with this. If the OP is deciding to throw his own "definitions" into the mix, then that's another matter.

Just because you're wearing a "Healing" headpiece or a "Protection" headpiece doesn't automatically make you a Healing or Protection Monk respectively. If a player has attribute points spread throughout Healing, Protection and Divine, and using well thought out skills from 2 out of 3 of those attribute lines, they will be playing a Hybrid build in my book.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

RC is there as a bar push that doubles as condition removal.

I accept conditions are quite commonplace, but surely there aren't a great number of places where RC would begin to consistently out perform WoH in terms of "red bars up"? Mandragor and Undead spring to mind. It puzzles me why you'd use RC as a red bars up, when it can't simply be used as such without meeting the condition to be such a skill. WoH can be used this way.

Jaigoda · May 21, 2009, 03:03 PM // 15:03

Sorry I came in so late - I got busy yesterday.

I should clarify my thoughts: Oh wait, Jeydra's done a pretty damn good job of that already, lol.

Also, before continuing discussion on this, I think it would be better to understand what people think are hybrids and what are prot/heal. My idea is that you can spec into three attributes, and still not be called a hybrid. This is because a heal monk, after putting in 2-3 heals, maybe condy/hex removal, is still left with space and has nothing better to do than run low-specced prots (typically 8+1 in prot). This, I don't see as a hybrid, since it's simply a full heal monk filling in his last slots with prots since nothing else can come from filling those with healing.

The prot monk, on the other hand, has no real need to spec into healing. If needed, you can bring RC or ZB for red-bar up, without ever needing to put anything into healing. Plus, since prot has skills that perform a myriad of functions, you can easily use a full 8-prot bar.

For instance, here's my general idea of a ProtnHeal backline:
12+1+1 heal, 10+1 divine, 8+1 prot
WoH, Patient Spirit, Dwayna's Kiss, Protective Spirit, Dismiss Condition, Cure Hex, Aegis, optional.

12+1+1 prot, 12+1 divine
RC/LS/ZB, RoF, Shield of Absorption, Spirit Bond, Guardian, Dismiss/optional (if running RC/LS), Deny/Remove Hex, Aegis

IMO, these cannot be called hybrids, especially the prot. Sure, the heal specs into prot, but he HAS to because other options are failsauce. I think the 'hybrid' term needs to be redefined, simply because under the current definition, pretty much anything you make that has healing in it as a monk WILL be a hybrid.

And it's you're really bullheaded, then consider it more as an argument between 2 hybrids or a hybrid and a prot. Happy?

Improvavel · May 21, 2009, 11:50 PM // 23:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Is it just me or is everyone simply reluctant to support Prot and Heal?

Because although the OP does not mean full prot and full heal in stereotypical fashion, what he mentions definitely is prot and heal. If you play GvG for instance it is quickly obvious that the RC Monk and WoH Monk, while both typically having some prots, are also entirely different. RC Monk cannot heal himself very well, while the WoH Monk has weaker prots. Differences like this one originate obviously (at least to me) from the Prot and Heal department. One is a Prot Monk, the other is a Heal Monk.

Of course GvG teams have a flag runner that generally heals as well. And if the flag runner isn't healer some other mid liner will run some healing or some times even a 3rd monk.

So saying "but hey GvG backlines are 1 prot and 1 heal" forgetting that there is a 3rd character ready to make up for the deficits of both the healer and the protter with something like restoration (which sports healing and protection in the means of weapons) is a bit meh at least.

And gift of health is a solid heal option for a "non-red bar up elite monk".

If a PvE team has a 3rd character dedicated to support both heal and protection, it's quite easy to replace the 2nd WoH (or whatever red bar up is the strongest at the time) for a more specialized elite.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaigoda

Sorry I came in so late - I got busy yesterday.

I should clarify my thoughts: Oh wait, Jeydra's done a pretty damn good job of that already, lol.

Also, before continuing discussion on this, I think it would be better to understand what people think are hybrids and what are prot/heal. My idea is that you can spec into three attributes, and still not be called a hybrid. This is because a heal monk, after putting in 2-3 heals, maybe condy/hex removal, is still left with space and has nothing better to do than run low-specced prots (typically 8+1 in prot). This, I don't see as a hybrid, since it's simply a full heal monk filling in his last slots with prots since nothing else can come from filling those with healing.

The prot monk, on the other hand, has no real need to spec into healing. If needed, you can bring RC or ZB for red-bar up, without ever needing to put anything into healing. Plus, since prot has skills that perform a myriad of functions, you can easily use a full 8-prot bar.

For instance, here's my general idea of a ProtnHeal backline:
12+1+1 heal, 10+1 divine, 8+1 prot
WoH, Patient Spirit, Dwayna's Kiss, Protective Spirit, Dismiss Condition, Cure Hex, Aegis, optional.

12+1+1 prot, 12+1 divine
RC/LS/ZB, RoF, Shield of Absorption, Spirit Bond, Guardian, Dismiss/optional (if running RC/LS), Deny/Remove Hex, Aegis

IMO, these cannot be called hybrids, especially the prot. Sure, the heal specs into prot, but he HAS to because other options are failsauce. I think the 'hybrid' term needs to be redefined, simply because under the current definition, pretty much anything you make that has healing in it as a monk WILL be a hybrid.

And it's you're really bullheaded, then consider it more as an argument between 2 hybrids or a hybrid and a prot. Happy?

So basically you are saying you can't have a full healing monk, but it's not a Hybrid either (???), since you don't need more than 2 heals.

So for you a hybrid is a monk with very low divine favor and who cares if most protection skills are just as efficient at 9-10 protection prayers...

And GvG back lines like those have the support of 3rd character like the E/Rt Ether Prism/restoration, Rit flag runners, N/Rt mid liner, 3rd monk, etc...

Actually, what you will see in the situation u presented, is the RC monk rarely leaving the company of either the WoH monk or the character using the restoration skills.

Remove that 3rd character and you will see the RC monk bring GoH or something like it.

Yep. Semantics war.

Jeydra · May 22, 2009, 01:09 AM // 01:09

Is it just me or are people more interested in arguing semantics than taking a stance on the 2x hybrids vs. 1x prot 1x heal hybrid as clarified by the OP in a later post?

Chthon · May 22, 2009, 01:36 AM // 01:36

1. My stance for a very long time has been very similar to OP's. I've been thrashed for it repeatedly on these forums, until I started calling my monks "lightly hybridized." Then everyone was fine with it. Folks around here latch onto the word "hybrid," and can't hear anything else you say until you pay your respects to it.

2. The rationale for lightly hybridized builds (particularly those that favor healing) lies in what a monk's supposed to do: (1) Prevent wtfpwn, (2) maximize hp gained/saved per sec, (3) maximize hp gained/saved per energy, and (4) remove bad stuff. Every build needs to balance those 4 concerns. While it's often said that "you can do everything a healer needs to do with 2 or 3 skills" the same can be said of prot. PS (and to a lesser degree SB and Aegis and Gaurdian) stops wtfpwn; the rest of prot really doesn't help much. A few prots have insane efficiency for both time and energy -- PS, SB , Aegis. The rest of prot is less efficient than heal. Thus, a hybrid bar that has all the essentials is done in 4-6 skills. After that, what goes on your bar is largely a matter of which task you want to maximize for: Do you want more insurance against wtfpwn? More time efficiency? More energy efficiency? More removal? If I'm concerned about wtfpwn, more prot. If I'm concerned about efficiency (either sort) usually HBoon. If I'm concerned about removal, I don't need to invest attributes at all.

3. Both the "fully hybridized" WoH build that's super-common and "lightly hybridized builds" get positively stomped on by ER eles. So much so that this discussion's kinda moot. Monks need something totally new and better if we want to keep our spots in the party.

Jaigoda · May 22, 2009, 01:59 AM // 01:59

So basically, rather than trying to prove its superiority the hybrid side is essentially trying to tell me that anything with prots and heals on the same bar is a hybrid? That seems pretty pointless to me, and feels like they're trying to obscure the subject rather than discuss it. And like I said, if you want to consider it an argument between two hybrids and a hybrid plus a prot, go ahead. I'm still not going to say that speccing 8/9 in prot for a prot or two makes the monk a hybrid.

Also, at the third backliner GvG argument: I haven't played in GvG lately so I don't know the current meta well enough to know the standard tactics, but when I was playing, the runner (usually a Rt/A back in my time) was almost never at the stand. So really, he typically didn't enter into the equation when working with the backline (and even if it did, you'd still want the two monks to function completely together, and not have to rely on the third healer). And yes, GoH is a valid option, but isn't really needed, especially in PvE.

Improvavel · May 22, 2009, 02:02 AM // 02:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Is it just me or are people more interested in arguing semantics than taking a stance on the 2x hybrids vs. 1x prot 1x heal hybrid as clarified by the OP in a later post?

The GvG back line example is unrealistic since there is a 3rd character concerned with healing and prot.

So jayedra, are you saying a hybrid + 12+1+1 prot 12+1 divine favor works better for PvE, without any other mid liner that has similar functions to mid liners/flag runners GvG characters using restoration?

Lets look at the prots elites and consider a 14/13/0 spread: ZB - inferior to WoH, expensive if fails the requirement; SoR - powerful but very expensive, there are better PvE +armor options, if WoH monk is down will be hard pressed; SoD - While powerful 2 Aegis/guardian/WoW will do the same, if WoH monk is down will be hard pressed;; LS - meh, if WoH monk is down will be hard pressed; RC - quite powerful if 2 or more conditions are present, not that powerful if they aren't, if WoH monk is down will be hard pressed; DH - very powerful in heavy hexes places; too expensive;if WoH monk is down will be hard pressed; AoF - interesting anti-spike skill, short duration, but not that great for PvE, if WoH monk is down will be hard pressed. The remaining protection elites are quite different in function but not that great and still don't solve the problem of WoH monk loss.

From the divine favor you have Boon signet which is a healing skill (not healing prayers); PnH which suffers the same problem when the WoH is down and Blessed Light, which is good if all conditions are met, but expensive and not as powerful as WoH.

Now, take one of those elites and add Gift of health at 9+1 or 10+1. Most likely 11+1+1/10+1/10+1.

What do you lose by reducing Protection Prayers from 14 to 13? Or even to 9+1?

Barely anything. With 20% enchantments mod the difference from a rank 9+1 Aegis is 2 secs to the 12+1+1 version. SoA has 0 difference. PS and SB differences are negligible.

And you get much adding GoH or WoH as the elite.

So yeah, I would say that for PvE (leaving eles out of this discussion) 2x 12+1+1 WoH 9+1/9+1 hybrids are superior to 1x WoH hybrid and a 12+1+1 Protection elite 12+1 DF in most circumstances. You get redundancy and robustness at the cost of 2 secs of aegis.

In areas where a specialized elite would work better, and I only see RC fulfilling that role since Divert Hexes is too expensive, a GoH+RC would be more robust in my opinion.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

1. My stance for a very long time has been very similar to OP's. I've been thrashed for it repeatedly on these forums, until I started calling my monks "lightly hybridized." Then everyone was fine with it. Folks around here latch onto the word "hybrid," and can't hear anything else you say until you pay your respects to it.

3. Both the "fully hybridized" WoH build that's super-common and "lightly hybridized builds" get positively stomped on by ER eles. So much so that this discussion's kinda moot. Monks need something totally new and better if we want to keep our spots in the party.

Call it whatever you want. if you feel a WoH monk with prots is a healing monk that is alright. It was the OP that stated a full heal monk and then proceeded to post a build with protection.

I'll play monk in your party. I won't play ER eles simply cause its boring and I'll probably fall asleep. But you are free to play ER ele in my parties.

ER eles still have to rely on the hex removal of other characters.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaigoda

The Hybrid Argument:
Usually, when running two hybrid monks (both have heals and prots), each monk brings a powerful healing elite (most always WoH), and then bring a few prots, trying not to overlap (one with SB, the other with PS, etc.). (...)

The PnH (ProtnHeal) Argument:
Unlike the hybrids, each monk in this case is generally considered to be one full healing monk, and a full protection monk. The main advantage is that there is no overlap of skills, so even if they cast on the same target, energy isn’t completely wasted (unlike two prots or two heals). Also, you keep the most effective heals and prots, since you can easily spec 14 or so into each one. The problem is that when one goes down, you completely lose your heals or prots. While it carries generally more powerful and efficient spells, it’s more vulnerable than two hybrids.(...)

And he continues:

Quote:

Now, everything so far most people know. But here’s the thing: even with full ProtnHeal, you can still bring a small heal on the prot and a prot or two on the heal. 8+1 prot for the healing monk will not take away from his heals, and allows you to bring Guardian, Prot Spirit, etc. Plus, if you have to, the prot can always bring ZB (prots have great elite options though, such as LS, PnH, RC, Boon Sig, Empathic Removal, etc.) so they both can still have some in both worlds.

So the OP starts saying full heal and prot is good and then says nononono heal with prots and prots with heals are better.

So what he is saying is Each monk needs red bar ups and protection .

WoW!!!!!!!!

The defenders of hybrids say Each monk needs red bar ups and protection .

WoW!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Next we will be debating if the "so called Protection Monk" heals for 120+ with a single skill he is hybrid and if he heals for less he is full prot?

Improvavel · May 22, 2009, 02:40 AM // 02:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaigoda

So basically, rather than trying to prove its superiority the hybrid side is essentially trying to tell me that anything with prots and heals on the same bar is a hybrid? That seems pretty pointless to me, and feels like they're trying to obscure the subject rather than discuss it. And like I said, if you want to consider it an argument between two hybrids and a hybrid plus a prot, go ahead. I'm still not going to say that speccing 8/9 in prot for a prot or two makes the monk a hybrid.

It is a debate started by you. For most folks a hybrid is a monk that can make red bars go up in a reasonable time and mitigate damage.

So you are agreeing with that just want to call it another name. Call it if it makes you happier.

If what you are trying to argue is that 2 WoH is worse than 1 WoH and another elite then it depends of the situation and the elite in question.

WoH, DKiss, PS, Aegis, Dismiss, SoA, CH, optional

WoH, PSpirit, SB, Aegis, Dismiss, CH, optional, optional

Is a very powerful back line for pve. And although its true ER eles can replace monks, the fact the ER eles are a case of overkill, and IMO less fun to play (infinite infuse mainly), skilled monks are enough for PvE.

Quote:

Also, at the third backliner GvG argument: I haven't played in GvG lately so I don't know the current meta well enough to know the standard tactics, but when I was playing, the runner (usually a Rt/A back in my time) was almost never at the stand. So really, he typically didn't enter into the equation when working with the backline (and even if it did, you'd still want the two monks to function completely together, and not have to rely on the third healer). And yes, GoH is a valid option, but isn't really needed, especially in PvE.

Of course in GvG you can rely in conditions to be applied every single time, making RC a powerful heal. Before (this update really), when the meta was WoH+PnH, you had LoD smiters mesmers at the stand for support and the flag runners would and still are on the current meta dropping their spirits and PwK.

I'm not sure if the PnH didn't run any signet or the DF's heal party like spells, but a RC monk in GvG has RC, RoF and SB that are granted to heal.

In PvE RC isn't granted to heal. Mobs in PvE can kill without conditions, players in GvG will be hardly pressed to do the same (its possible but not as easily).
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Edit: Lets just solve the semantics problem.

Healing monk should have been the designation of a monk that has his main investment in healing prayers and Protection monk a monk that has his main investment in protections prayers.

That would be in a perfect world.

In this world though, a healing monk is for the "average GW player" something filled with healing prayers and divine favor skills.

That kind of monk that takes the designation of Healing Monk is what makes the designation of Hybrid necessary.

Likewise, even though protection prayers monks, will always heal some (and proboons used to heal loads), any Protection prayers monk that have skills that makes decent heals (more than just the divine favor bonus) is also called hybrid.

Might not be perfect but that is the defined convention to differentiate from a Healing Monk with no prots.

The same way we call "Tank" any melee character that devotes a significant portion of its bar with damage reduction/armor bonuses/blocking/etc. skills, when it's obvious a "tank" should me any high armor front liner that deals huge damage. And so, when we are referring to front liners role in PvE we need to say "body block" instead of "tanking".

If we consider this, the question of this thread is "Is 2x WoH monks better for PvE than a WoH and another elite monks?".

This question isn't as obvious. The closer overall elite is Boon Signet, imo. Skills like RC, DH and PnH have several limitations, although in specific areas they can excel, those are aren't common.

Jaigoda · May 22, 2009, 04:01 AM // 04:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

The GvG back line example is unrealistic since there is a 3rd character concerned with healing and prot.

So jayedra, are you saying a hybrid + 12+1+1 prot 12+1 divine favor works better for PvE, without any other mid liner that has similar functions to mid liners/flag runners GvG characters using restoration?

Again, read what I said above. 2 monks is all that is ever accounted in a typical balanced GvG build. The third healer is almost always a runner and will thus only rarely be with the stand team.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

Lets look at the prots elites and consider a 14/13/0 spread: ZB - inferior to WoH, expensive if fails the requirement; SoR - powerful but very expensive, there are better PvE +armor options, if WoH monk is down will be hard pressed; blah blah blah...

How about this: [insert most any prot elite] works great, but if the WoH monk goes down, THEN EFFING RES THE DUDE. Don't freaking pretend that once the heal monk is down that it's game over. Any full prot should be able to hold the fort until the heal gets a res. If not, quit the crappy guild/pug and get on with your life.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

Now, take one of those elites and add Gift of health at 9+1 or 10+1. Most likely 11+1+1/10+1/10+1.

What do you lose by reducing Protection Prayers from 14 to 13? Or even to 9+1?

I would MUCH rather take another prot than GoH. And 14 hits the breakpoint almost every good duration-affected prot like Aegis, SoA, and Guardian. LOL at using 13 prot.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

Barely anything. With 20% enchantments mod the difference from a rank 9+1 Aegis is 2 secs to the 12+1+1 version. SoA has 0 difference. PS and SB differences are negligible.

Uhh, SoA has a 2sec difference, which is likely to be at least 50-100 extra damage reduced, depending on how much pressure the target is taking. Aegis is the same way, and considering the amount of physicals in PvE, that's a LOT of damage to be mitigated in 2 seconds. Also, from 9 to 14 SB loses as much as 200 health per cast. Do not try and make it sound like there's little difference between 9 and 14 prot, because it's two different worlds.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

So yeah, I would say that for PvE (leaving eles out of this discussion) 2x 12+1+1 WoH 9+1/9+1 hybrids are superior to 1x WoH hybrid and a 12+1+1 Protection elite 12+1 DF in most circumstances. You get redundancy and robustness at the cost of 2 secs of aegis.

No, hybrids have redundancy, not heal+prot. And it's way more than 2 secs of Aegis, it's 2 secs on every prot skill that people use, and huge amounts of potential damage prevented.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

In areas where a specialized elite would work better, and I only see RC fulfilling that role since Divert Hexes is too expensive, a GoH+RC would be more robust in my opinion.

LS is an excellent all-purpose elite that serves both as a RoF and a condition removal for good bar compression (another skill where a full spec is all but the only option). And you don't NEED heals if your prots are doing their job. There's a prot for almost every single situation.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

Call it whatever you want. if you feel a WoH monk with prots is a healing monk that is alright. It was the OP that stated a full heal monk and then proceeded to post a build with protection.

I never said a full heal monk. I said a full ProtnHeal backline, meaning a monk that specs 14 into Prot, and a monk with 14/11/9 in heal, divine, and prot, respectively.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

And he continues:

So the OP starts saying full heal and prot is good and then says nononono heal with prots and prots with heals are better.

So what he is saying is Each monk needs red bar ups and protection .

WoW!!!!!!!!

The defenders of hybrids say Each monk needs red bar ups and protection .

WoW!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Next we will be debating if the "so called Protection Monk" heals for 120+ with a single skill he is hybrid and if he heals for less he is full prot?

Christ, way to take my words out of context. Leave it to the internet to literally pick apart every RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing word you say. I NEVER said that prots needed heals, and that's my point! I was saying that if you really wanted heals, you could bring ZB, even though there are better prot options. And I was saying that the heal monk can get by with a few heals, so there's no point not speccing into prot for the heal, since it only takes 2 out of divine (the prot is an entirely diffirent story, stop saying it's not; prot can mitigate far more than heal ever will). If you want to call the heal monk a hybrid go right RED ENGINE GOetc.ing ahead. Just stop using my word usage as a means of getting away from the actual topic. This isn't a semantics war, it's SUPPOSED to be a discussion between a hybrid or a prot as the second monk, essentially.

Please, wise up or leave before you get this thread locked.

EDIT: And why are you going on about RC? Sure, it's great, but Boon Sig, ZB (whose advantage is the fact you don't actually have to spec into heal for WoH, though still inferior tbh), LS, UA, Empathic Removal, etc. are all still good options.

Alright, I'll try and completely define my beliefs on heal/prot/hybrids: In my opinion(!) any build with 12+1+1 in healing prayers with the next most invested attribute being divine favor, is a healing monk; any build with 12+1+1 in protection prayers with the next most invested attribute being divine favor, is a protection monk; and any build with a high investment in both prot and heal (at least 11 in both attributes, likely a 13-11-11 split), is a hybrid monk. If that's not your definition, good for you and we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Still, this stupid stuff like this shouldn't distract from the main idea: Is a full prot monk superior to a second hybrid monk, or not?

MagmaRed · May 22, 2009, 04:02 AM // 04:02

I understand the arguments for both, and make my decision based on what works for me. I do things quite different than most with regards to runes and attributes for my hero Monks. And when using human monks, I prefer to run something similar to what I do with my heroes. Only reason I make a change is if the area I am working in has a party size of 4 or 6 instead of 8.

I use 2 Monks with completely different builds. One a pure healer, one a pure protector. I did this at the start because I didn't like splitting attributes, nor did I like having the same skill used at the same time by both. Good example is something like a condition removal spell. Heroes tend to use it immediately, regardless of the condition or class it is on. So a Necro may get hit with Blind just before a Warrior does, and the Warrior will have to wait for the recharge on the condition removal spell before it is removed. Give both monks a condition removal, and chances are good they will both use it at the same time (unless they are out of energy or casting another spell).

Since I have done all the HM titles using my setup, I don't see a reason to change. I even give my heroes Superior runes a lot. Depending on what drops I get for various characters. Some of my Monks have a Superior Heal or Protect along with Major Vigor and Minor Divine. Some have Major Heal or Protect with a Major Vigor and Major Divine. I also give my Heal Monks Radiant insignias and my Protect monks Blessed insignias. No Survivor, no Vitae, and either 70 or 75 health lost from runes. Typically they have 455-485 health depending on the weapon they use.

The 2 builds I use most often vary a little, but not much. THe variance will be based on what monsters I face and wether it is HM or NM.

Healer:
12+1+3 or 12+1+2 Healing Prayers
12+1 or 12+2 Divine Favor
3+1 Protection Prayers

[Unyielding Aura][Holy Haste][Ethereal Light][Dwayna's Kiss][Orison of Healing][Cure Hex][Dismiss Condition][Signet of Rejuvenation]

Protect:
12+1+3 or 12+1+2 Protection Prayers
12+1 or 12+2 Divine Favor

[Shield of Regeneration][Aegis][Protective Spirit][Reversal of Fortune][Guardian][Spirit Bond][Remove Hex][Glyph of Lesser Energy]

For NM I often swap SB for SoA and I will occassionally use PnH, BL, or LS as the elite.

I just prefer 2 seperate monks over 2 hybrids.

Improvavel · May 22, 2009, 05:08 AM // 05:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaigoda

Again, read what I said above. 2 monks is all that is ever accounted in a typical balanced GvG build. The third healer is almost always a runner and will thus only rarely be with the stand team.

Not exactly. GvG is different from PvE. PvE pure damage can be quite superior.

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How about this: [insert most any prot elite] works great, but if the WoH monk goes down, THEN EFFING RES THE DUDE. Don't freaking pretend that once the heal monk is down that it's game over. Any full prot should be able to hold the fort until the heal gets a res. If not, quit the crappy guild/pug and get on with your life.

Well why the hell would the WoH monk go down with that all protection right?

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I would MUCH rather take another prot than GoH. And 14 hits the breakpoint almost every good duration-affected prot like Aegis, SoA, and Guardian. LOL at using 13 prot.

No I don't use 13 prot.

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Uhh, SoA has a 2sec difference, which is likely to be at least 50-100 extra damage reduced, depending on how much pressure the target is taking. Aegis is the same way, and considering the amount of physicals in PvE, that's a LOT of damage to be mitigated in 2 seconds. Also, from 9 to 14 SB loses as much as 200 health per cast. Do not try and make it sound like there's little difference between 9 and 14 prot, because it's two different worlds.

I don't see why u using 9 prot instead of 9+1 then.

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No, hybrids have redundancy, not heal+prot. And it's way more than 2 secs of Aegis, it's 2 secs on every prot skill that people use, and huge amounts of potential damage prevented.

Hybrids don't prot? 17 secs PS at rank 9+1 Protection. And 2 words of healing

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LS is an excellent all-purpose elite that serves both as a RoF and a condition removal for good bar compression (another skill where a full spec is all but the only option). And you don't NEED heals if your prots are doing their job. There's a prot for almost every single situation.

Or might just end removing a condition. Or healing caster wand auto-attack.

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I never said a full heal monk. I said a full ProtnHeal backline, meaning a monk that specs 14 into Prot, and a monk with 14/11/9 in heal, divine, and prot, respectively.

If you spec 14/10/10 you get another full sec out of SoA.

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Christ, way to take my words out of context. Leave it to the internet to literally pick apart every RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing word you say. I NEVER said that prots needed heals, and that's my point! I was saying that if you really wanted heals, you could bring ZB, even though there are better prot options. And I was saying that the heal monk can get by with a few heals, so there's no point not speccing into prot for the heal, since it only takes 2 out of divine (the prot is an entirely diffirent story, stop saying it's not; prot can mitigate far more than heal ever will). If you want to call the heal monk a hybrid go right RED ENGINE GOetc.ing ahead. Just stop using my word usage as a means of getting away from the actual topic. This isn't a semantics war, it's SUPPOSED to be a discussion between a hybrid or a prot as the second monk, essentially.
Please, wise up or leave before you get this thread locked.

Prot its fantastic. Specially great if the damage going on only 1 target. Now if it is going on more than one you will be hard pressed to catch 2 targets with spirit bond. Lets not forget AoE damage. Yep you can run out of it if its not dealt in a single package. And lets not forget that the damn mobs attack so fast and cast so fast in HM that 10 hits will go in a blink and auto-attacks from physicals will deal enough damage.

And you lose cure hex.

Lets see the prots you will bring - Aegis, SoA, PS, SB. Maybe guardian. What else. Shielding hands - I would rather have seed of life or another copy of SoA. RoF is inferior to Patient spirit.

So yes, your Aegis will last a bit longer and instead of 22 you will have 24 seconds. You SoA will last 1 more sec. Your SB will heal for more. No cure hex that heals for loads.

LS is useless because: dismiss condition is great and RC is better than LS. You either run RC or you run another elite with dismiss condition.

Really, the only thing I see is Boon signet or RC in those special situations.

I enjoy Boon Signet and it could allow me to bring heaven's delight and deny hexes would be great. Still i don't know how it will fare.

Or good old WoH.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaigoda

Still, this stupid stuff like this shouldn't distract from the main idea: Is a full prot monk superior to a second hybrid monk, or not?

I'm assuming PvE.

Depends on the area.

Depends if your party has heroes or not.

And you cant assume the only damage mitigation is coming from protection.

Enfeebling blood is very powerful in PvE.

Jaigoda · May 22, 2009, 05:09 AM // 05:09

Okay, so my refined thoughts between a hybrid or a full prot as the second monk:

Hybrid:
Contains a lot of redundancy. You have 4 heals, though they're kind of needed since your prots are gimped. While there isn't exactly overlap, it's much easier to overheal/overprot with hybrids than compared to heal+prot. Your prots aren't going to be as powerful as they could be because of the somewhat low spec into them. While you have two powerful elites, they're actually the same skill meaning they both, you know, perform the same role (so no hard condition/hex removal, or powerful damage mitigation). You trade all this for less dependancy between the two, and... Uh, I don't really see any other reasons for taking two hybrids.

Prot+Hybrid/Heal:
Here you have one that prots most damage coming in, and the other one helps to prevent a bit more damage, and heals up anything else coming through. You've got two different elites for better versatility, can chain prots like Aegis even better (since the prot has a 14-spec), and can be very efficient without ever really having to worry about skill overlap (except for maybe Guardian). You sacrifice all this for the fact that the prot doesn't last quite as well without the hybrid, but can still hold things down for the 5 or so seconds needed for the heal monk to get back up.

I really don't see much of a comparison. Am I missing something?

Improvavel · May 22, 2009, 05:27 AM // 05:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaigoda

Okay, so my refined thoughts between a hybrid or a full prot as the second monk:

Hybrid:
Contains a lot of redundancy. You have 4 heals, though they're kind of needed since your prots are gimped. While there isn't exactly overlap, it's much easier to overheal/overprot with hybrids than compared to heal+prot. Your prots aren't going to be as powerful as they could be because of the somewhat low spec into them. While you have two powerful elites, they're actually the same skill meaning they both, you know, perform the same role (so no hard condition/hex removal, or powerful damage mitigation). You trade all this for less dependancy between the two, and... Uh, I don't really see any other reasons for taking two hybrids.

Prot+Hybrid/Heal:
Here you have one that prots most damage coming in, and the other one helps to prevent a bit more damage, and heals up anything else coming through. You've got two different elites for better versatility, can chain prots like Aegis even better (since the prot has a 14-spec), and can be very efficient without ever really having to worry about skill overlap (except for maybe Guardian). You sacrifice all this for the fact that the prot doesn't last quite as well without the hybrid, but can still hold things down for the 5 or so seconds needed for the heal monk to get back up.

I really don't see much of a comparison. Am I missing something?

As I said above, some of the prots are sub par, like rof. You lose cure hex, Hexes can and will kill you.

Also you seem to be ignoring some skills that hybrids can bring: Cure hex. spotless mind, patient spirit is more efficient than rof, draw conditions.

Additionally you put to much faith on the protection elites - if you bring ZB it performs the same as WoH (except it is weaker). Their patient spirit is better than ur RoF (or maybe they bring DKiss which is great in PvE. The 2nd elite can be LoD if needed. Divert hexes is costly. LS is meh meh, basically either inferior to patient spirit or condition removal when there are great non elite ones.

So, what's left is RC and Boon signet. RC is great. Boon signet isn't bad but I don't know about staying power.

I keep my idea - the protector needs to have direct heals too (and I call that an hybrid and I call proboons hybrids

). If it does it is all good.

Jaigoda · May 22, 2009, 06:24 AM // 06:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

As I said above, some of the prots are sub par, like rof. You lose cure hex, Hexes can and will kill you.

Also you seem to be ignoring some skills that hybrids can bring: Cure hex. spotless mind, patient spirit is more efficient than rof, draw conditions.

You're just grasping at straws here. The hybrid can still bring Patient, Spotless, and Cure by all means. The prot can also bring draw, the healing won't make much of a difference. And RoF is an easy on-demand 80+ heal with a 1/4 cast, and with 14 prot can save as much as 144 hp, far more tha Patient.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

Additionally you put to much faith on the protection elites - if you bring ZB it performs the same as WoH (except it is weaker). Their patient spirit is better than ur RoF (or maybe they bring DKiss which is great in PvE. The 2nd elite can be LoD if needed. Divert hexes is costly. LS is meh meh, basically either inferior to patient spirit or condition removal when there are great non elite ones.

I never said Divert was good, actually. Again, ZB isn't the best option, but is a simple enough elite if you want to go full prot. And how exactly is 1/4s 2s recharge skill that potentially heals for 190, with an added bonus of removing two conditions (meaning bar compression), meh? And even then, you still have Boon Sig for red-bar-up (and if you consider 14 prot/13 divine a hybrid in any way, something's wrong with you).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

I keep my idea - the protector needs to have direct heals too (and I call that an hybrid and I call proboons hybrids

). If it does it is all good.

A good prot monk can easily make up for lack of heals with good usage of prots. 2-4 heals (including maybe one party heal) should be more than enough to keep bars up, without making the prot sacrifice.

JDRyder · May 22, 2009, 07:20 AM // 07:20

12+1+1 Healing, 8+1 Prot, 10+1 Divine
WoH, Psprit, SoR, Healing seed, PS, Dismiss, CA, GoLE <---- Healing monk

12+1+1 Healing, 9+1 Prot, 9+1 Divine
WoH, Psprit, SoA, Aegis, PS, Dismiss, CA, GoLE <----- Hybrid

12+1+3 (or 1 w/e

) Healing, 12+1 Divine
HB, Psprit, Dkiss, Healing Seed, Words of comfort, CA, HP, GoLE <--- noob healing build

8+1 Healing, 12+1+1 Prot, 9+1 Divine
LS, GoH, Guardian, SB, SoA, Remove Hex, Aegis GoLE <----Prot monk

9+1 Healing, 12+1+1 Prot, 9+1 Divine
AoF, Psprit, Dkiss, SB, Aegis, Spotless mind, Spotless Soul, GoLE <--- Hybrid

I could keep going on but really its not that hard to look at a build and say "this is a Hybrid, and thats a Prot monk". ALL builds are hybrids from what most people see hybrid monk as because they all have at least two attributes. You can argue all you want over whats a hybrid and whats not, but its only a matter of time before you just start calling EVERY thing a hybrid, that is unless you only use half your Att points.

Some builds are more healing, and some builds are more Prot, and some have a balance of both. Thats all the needs to be said imo, just view the monks with more healing as healer monks and the monks with more prots as prot monks, and the monks with good balance as a hybrid.